This is so well-written. It is an impressive attempt to communicate something so important that should be so simple but that has gotten so obfuscated. Thank you all.
I’m glad this comes forward, but it seems to confuses cause and effect.
Men who mimic women are part of a biological phenomenon which appears regularly in the animal kingdom. A male wrasse imitating females is not an Extreme Overvalued Belief; it’s a well-documented behavior called “sexual mimicry”, appearing in every family of complex animals, from birds and cuttlefish to humans and turtles.
For men who imitate women, irrespective of social context, it can gradually appear life-saving - avoiding male competition (these mimics die at half the rate of ordinary men). For men with sexual body dysmorphia, social context is irrelevant to the mis-mapping of body and body image - it is a somatic error. For men with transvestic fetishism, it can be as simple as wearing a bra under clothes which escalates. They wish to be seen as a man mimicking a woman for access to women.
When mimics “network” they find ways to strengthen the mimicry and hiding of their sex as a group, and then can push for more and more complex social consent to the mimicry being “real”. When it is a delusion is when it begins to become borderline psychotic, complete detachment from reality.
In short, like compulsive lying, or freeloading - asocial behaviors which are widespread among animals - it is a natural human behavior, meaning we are born with the innate capacity to imitate the opposite sex, like a number of other animals.
There’s a moment of no return - self-mutilation, violent refusal to be recognized as the sex one is, insistent demand that the person has genitals or mind of the opposite sex, it really is often a delusion of the “bizarre” variety in medical journals. Escalation may lead to an Extreme Overvalued Belief but it’s not really a belief - it’s a behavior.
Sexual mimicry in the animal kingdom is a tactical resource: an individual temporarily imitates the appearance or behavior of the opposite sex in order to gain reproductive advantages.
Transposing this directly to the human trans condition is problematic, because the contexts are different. Those who adopt this type of strategy are a minority within the trans cohort. Most trans-identified people are not mimicking to gain sexual access to the opposite sex; rather, they are usually homosexually oriented and have channeled the rejection of that condition into the conviction of “being” the opposite sex.
Dissatisfaction with one’s body image (“sexual body dysmorphia”) can indeed play a role, but mainly in a smaller subgroup. And as you yourself recognize, transvestic fetishism does not necessarily imply delusion or disconnection from reality: it is more a matter of an intensification of a specific sexual behavior.
What you are describing does not correspond to the “Extreme Overvalued Beliefs” referred to in the Genspect article, which address a different kind of phenomenon.
I’m afraid from my reading that the majority of trans who write in journals are heterosexual, but going back to the 70’s the behavior has evolved, but not much.
In some animals sexual mimicry is temporary - cuttlefish; in some it isn’t - Orangutans which don’t have male facial flanges. Snakes do it seasonally; Wrasse do it at mating time.
Humans do it exactly as animals do with identically the same effect.
Sex mimic males are murdered at half the rate of other men, completely consistent with animal observations.
Sex mimic males cheat social sexual systems (heterosexual rape, abuse, and pedophilia) and at between 3x and 5x the rates of other men, utterly consistent with animal kingdom observations.
Not only is it identical, it has empirically the same outcomes. Humans are animals, and most of our behaviors are consistent with animals.
I don't have the statistics on the sexual orientation of trans people who write for magazines, but I think you'll agree that most trans people aren't heterosexual. That's the point. Most people who identify as trans don't do so to have sexual access to the opposite sex.
In the cases you describe, 100 percent of them do so for the reasons you describe.
The study you linked (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37715161) actually reports that only 17.6 % of trans respondents identified as “straight/heterosexual,” whereas bisexual and queer identities were more frequent (18.9 % and 18.1 %). Almost half of the sample fell into other categories or unspecified.
To avoid confusion about definitions (orientation relative to affirmed vs natal sex), let me point to data from De Cuypere (2005) and Smith (2014). They show that among MtF (natal males), homosexual orientation ranges between 32–45 %, plus bisexual 22–25 %, making a combined 54–70 %. For FtM (natal females), homosexual orientation is 50 % plus bisexual ~20 %, so ~70 % in total. Heterosexual orientations (28–30 % for MtF, 16–30 % for FtM) are clearly a minority.
There are also studies by Green, Steensma, Singh and Drummond which showed that between 60 and 80% of children with GD desist after puberty and the vast majority then identify as homosexual or bisexual in adulthood.
So the bulk of evidence shows that heterosexuality is not predominant in trans populations. If some famous individual cases are heterosexual, that does not overturn the consistent epidemiological data.
That’s why I argue the claim “most trans are heterosexual men” is simply not supported by the data.
You cannot take a response about sex from a person who hides their sex, you must ask the question “what is their sex” and “what is the sex of the person they had sex with”.
Maybe some justification for that, though I'd argue, have argued till I'm blue in the face, that you're barking up the wrong tree. Though, unlike many others, you at least seem to be in the right forest.
More particularly and for example, the problem is less that some transwomen want to express a "feminine gender identity" than that many of them insist they've changed sex, and demand to be treated as if they had done so.
> "It is not a call to stigmatize or marginalize individuals who identify as transgender.
Not quite sure what else to call "psychopathologizing" other than "stigmatizing" ...
Kinda think you need to have a better handle on what and where that "pathology" is. Having less wooish and more scientifically tenable definitions for both sex and gender might be a good start.
ETA : An article by Victoria Smith at The Critic about transwoman/transsexual "Debbie" Hayton who at least admits he hasn't changed sex, though, technically speaking he's now a sexless eunuch:
VS: "He’s not the messiah, he’s a transwoman; Transsexual Apostate is a disturbing book, written for disturbing times."
This is so well-written. It is an impressive attempt to communicate something so important that should be so simple but that has gotten so obfuscated. Thank you all.
Clear, direct, honest, and respectful. Brilliantly stated. Thank you.
I’m glad this comes forward, but it seems to confuses cause and effect.
Men who mimic women are part of a biological phenomenon which appears regularly in the animal kingdom. A male wrasse imitating females is not an Extreme Overvalued Belief; it’s a well-documented behavior called “sexual mimicry”, appearing in every family of complex animals, from birds and cuttlefish to humans and turtles.
For men who imitate women, irrespective of social context, it can gradually appear life-saving - avoiding male competition (these mimics die at half the rate of ordinary men). For men with sexual body dysmorphia, social context is irrelevant to the mis-mapping of body and body image - it is a somatic error. For men with transvestic fetishism, it can be as simple as wearing a bra under clothes which escalates. They wish to be seen as a man mimicking a woman for access to women.
When mimics “network” they find ways to strengthen the mimicry and hiding of their sex as a group, and then can push for more and more complex social consent to the mimicry being “real”. When it is a delusion is when it begins to become borderline psychotic, complete detachment from reality.
In short, like compulsive lying, or freeloading - asocial behaviors which are widespread among animals - it is a natural human behavior, meaning we are born with the innate capacity to imitate the opposite sex, like a number of other animals.
There’s a moment of no return - self-mutilation, violent refusal to be recognized as the sex one is, insistent demand that the person has genitals or mind of the opposite sex, it really is often a delusion of the “bizarre” variety in medical journals. Escalation may lead to an Extreme Overvalued Belief but it’s not really a belief - it’s a behavior.
Sexual mimicry in the animal kingdom is a tactical resource: an individual temporarily imitates the appearance or behavior of the opposite sex in order to gain reproductive advantages.
Transposing this directly to the human trans condition is problematic, because the contexts are different. Those who adopt this type of strategy are a minority within the trans cohort. Most trans-identified people are not mimicking to gain sexual access to the opposite sex; rather, they are usually homosexually oriented and have channeled the rejection of that condition into the conviction of “being” the opposite sex.
Dissatisfaction with one’s body image (“sexual body dysmorphia”) can indeed play a role, but mainly in a smaller subgroup. And as you yourself recognize, transvestic fetishism does not necessarily imply delusion or disconnection from reality: it is more a matter of an intensification of a specific sexual behavior.
What you are describing does not correspond to the “Extreme Overvalued Beliefs” referred to in the Genspect article, which address a different kind of phenomenon.
I’m afraid from my reading that the majority of trans who write in journals are heterosexual, but going back to the 70’s the behavior has evolved, but not much.
In some animals sexual mimicry is temporary - cuttlefish; in some it isn’t - Orangutans which don’t have male facial flanges. Snakes do it seasonally; Wrasse do it at mating time.
Humans do it exactly as animals do with identically the same effect.
Sex mimic males are murdered at half the rate of other men, completely consistent with animal observations.
Sex mimic males cheat social sexual systems (heterosexual rape, abuse, and pedophilia) and at between 3x and 5x the rates of other men, utterly consistent with animal kingdom observations.
Not only is it identical, it has empirically the same outcomes. Humans are animals, and most of our behaviors are consistent with animals.
That simple.
I don't have the statistics on the sexual orientation of trans people who write for magazines, but I think you'll agree that most trans people aren't heterosexual. That's the point. Most people who identify as trans don't do so to have sexual access to the opposite sex.
In the cases you describe, 100 percent of them do so for the reasons you describe.
This isn't the case for most trans people.
I recently went back at a number of trans journals, ongoing since 1979. All of them were oriented towards heterosexual men.
Virginia Prince was heterosexual; and was anti-gay.
The three most famous recent trans are heterosexual men - Bruce Jenner, Lia Thomas, and Amy Schneider, all married or have a girlfriend.
I think the number of heterosexual trans far outweighs other types.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37715161
Over 70% of the men (male sex mimics) in the study reported sex with a woman recently.
That’s pretty heterosexual. Other studies are similar.
Some of these men have homosexual or bisexual sexual, but the majority are heterosexual, same as with “nonbinary”.
70% +
Heterosexual men by definition generally don’t like to have sex with other men, and gay men prefer men who are masculine.
The study you linked (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37715161) actually reports that only 17.6 % of trans respondents identified as “straight/heterosexual,” whereas bisexual and queer identities were more frequent (18.9 % and 18.1 %). Almost half of the sample fell into other categories or unspecified.
To avoid confusion about definitions (orientation relative to affirmed vs natal sex), let me point to data from De Cuypere (2005) and Smith (2014). They show that among MtF (natal males), homosexual orientation ranges between 32–45 %, plus bisexual 22–25 %, making a combined 54–70 %. For FtM (natal females), homosexual orientation is 50 % plus bisexual ~20 %, so ~70 % in total. Heterosexual orientations (28–30 % for MtF, 16–30 % for FtM) are clearly a minority.
There are also studies by Green, Steensma, Singh and Drummond which showed that between 60 and 80% of children with GD desist after puberty and the vast majority then identify as homosexual or bisexual in adulthood.
So the bulk of evidence shows that heterosexuality is not predominant in trans populations. If some famous individual cases are heterosexual, that does not overturn the consistent epidemiological data.
That’s why I argue the claim “most trans are heterosexual men” is simply not supported by the data.
You cannot take a response about sex from a person who hides their sex, you must ask the question “what is their sex” and “what is the sex of the person they had sex with”.
Their self-reported orientation is confabulation.
> "Re-Psychopathologization of Transgender…"
Maybe some justification for that, though I'd argue, have argued till I'm blue in the face, that you're barking up the wrong tree. Though, unlike many others, you at least seem to be in the right forest.
More particularly and for example, the problem is less that some transwomen want to express a "feminine gender identity" than that many of them insist they've changed sex, and demand to be treated as if they had done so.
> "It is not a call to stigmatize or marginalize individuals who identify as transgender.
Not quite sure what else to call "psychopathologizing" other than "stigmatizing" ...
Kinda think you need to have a better handle on what and where that "pathology" is. Having less wooish and more scientifically tenable definitions for both sex and gender might be a good start.
ETA : An article by Victoria Smith at The Critic about transwoman/transsexual "Debbie" Hayton who at least admits he hasn't changed sex, though, technically speaking he's now a sexless eunuch:
VS: "He’s not the messiah, he’s a transwoman; Transsexual Apostate is a disturbing book, written for disturbing times."
https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/april-2024/hes-not-the-messiah-hes-a-transwoman/