I agree, most adults aren't fully informed, so how could a child be? I have come to believe that the 'consent' framing is part of the problem, because it creates permission for unethical behaviour.
One wants a randomized controlled trial. As it seems whether you got psychotherapy or quick medication depended on who you saw at gids, maybe this "lottery" noted by the Cass Review is a feature for a retrospective study.
That's a good point, there does seem to have been a stochastic element in NHS gender services. Perhaps that's a result of having lack of consensus among professionals, weak management or a general lack of consistency, at the cost of the children's care.
What seems obvious is that we should not be experimenting on children with toxic chemicals that block natural bodily processes based on alleged feelings of sadness or disappointment around being male or female. This sounds insane, reckless and cruel.
The only thing that could possibly justify these medical interventions would be if there was rampant out of control suicide among this patient cohort - not caused by societal reactions to things such as gender non-conforming behavior (aka non-stereotypical behavior), because that could and should be alleviated through changes in societal reactions. There is no such pattern of suicides in 11 and 12-year-olds because they are in a body that is male or female.
Instead, at worst - and I think we are on shaky grounds in proving this exists at all, much less in the majority of kids being diagnosed as gender dysphoric - we have an epidemic of children who are unhappy with their sex (ie. they wish they were born the other sex). That disappointment with their sex is not in any way life-threatening, and can most likely be dealt with on a psychological level, through talk therapy, behavioral therapy, time and maturity.
There is no justification for helping kids who are "unhappy" with their sex by drugging them and putting them on a pathway to infertility, sexual dysfunction, and a host of health issues for a lifetime, ranging from bone density issues and incontinence to increased risk of stroke, heart attack, and, rarely, death.
Further, as you clarified, there is an abundance of existing evidence out there to trace whether use of puberty blockers has any overwhelming benefit to mental health that could possibly justify the known and unknown negative effects on physical health from the medical interventions proposed (puberty blockers - which are followed by synthetic cross-sex hormones and so-called "top" surgery [double mastectomies] and "bottom" surgery [castration and penile inversion/vaginoplasty or hysterectomy and/or fake penis creation from forearm or thigh flesh/phalloplasty]). We have to include these other medical interventions because it is known that once a child is put on puberty blockers, there is about a 96% chance of going on to those other medical interventions. So, as you note, we should look at what has happened to all of the children put on blockers over the last 20 years or so, and go from there.
Lastly, if we are to do anything for children today who have not yet received any treatment and are of an age to receive blockers (around 11 or 12), and are diagnosed with gender dysphoria, it should be non-invasive talk therapy or behavioral therapy using the full range of techniques available, without the ridiculous constraint of having to "affirm" and never question a child's discomfort with their own body. I will add that we need to STOP teaching children, teens, and young adults that discomfort with their sex means they are actually the opposite sex and must be treated and referred to as the opposite sex and given medical treatments to appear as the opposite sex from puberty on in order to have any semblance of happiness. This is a ridiculous falsehood that is causing many children, teens and young adults to reject their own bodies and suffer medical harm.
The concept of gender identity affirmation is highly convenient for adults who wish to carry out drastic social, medical and surgical interventions on children and young people, whatever their motivations; financial, political or psychopathic. I maintain that no group in society is treated as badly as the mentally ill, between wars that is.
I fully agree, which is why I can't support a new cohort of children being experimented on by the NHS. I would argue that the right to good health and development, including the completion of puberty, is more important than any right to have your childhood feelings about gender respected by adults.
Piglets? Monkeys? I know we are on shaky ground for animal rights, but I just can't imagine that human children would be the starting point for live experiments
Have there been adequate animal studies on puberty blockers and cross sex hormones? If not, shouldn't that be required before human studies are allowed?
I didn't know of any animal studies on gender transition, assuming there would be difficulty in diagnosing dysphoria in a lab rat. However it turns out that people really have been doing transgender experiments on rats and mice. Here are three I found:
I suppose so, but puberty is so much earlier in rodent life cycles that I'm not sure the results would be meaningful for humans. According to this article, the relationship between mouse and human development is not linear.
At one point I was a bit open to clinical trails, but I have evolved to believe that no child can provide informed concent to be an experiment.
I agree, most adults aren't fully informed, so how could a child be? I have come to believe that the 'consent' framing is part of the problem, because it creates permission for unethical behaviour.
One wants a randomized controlled trial. As it seems whether you got psychotherapy or quick medication depended on who you saw at gids, maybe this "lottery" noted by the Cass Review is a feature for a retrospective study.
That's a good point, there does seem to have been a stochastic element in NHS gender services. Perhaps that's a result of having lack of consensus among professionals, weak management or a general lack of consistency, at the cost of the children's care.
What seems obvious is that we should not be experimenting on children with toxic chemicals that block natural bodily processes based on alleged feelings of sadness or disappointment around being male or female. This sounds insane, reckless and cruel.
The only thing that could possibly justify these medical interventions would be if there was rampant out of control suicide among this patient cohort - not caused by societal reactions to things such as gender non-conforming behavior (aka non-stereotypical behavior), because that could and should be alleviated through changes in societal reactions. There is no such pattern of suicides in 11 and 12-year-olds because they are in a body that is male or female.
Instead, at worst - and I think we are on shaky grounds in proving this exists at all, much less in the majority of kids being diagnosed as gender dysphoric - we have an epidemic of children who are unhappy with their sex (ie. they wish they were born the other sex). That disappointment with their sex is not in any way life-threatening, and can most likely be dealt with on a psychological level, through talk therapy, behavioral therapy, time and maturity.
There is no justification for helping kids who are "unhappy" with their sex by drugging them and putting them on a pathway to infertility, sexual dysfunction, and a host of health issues for a lifetime, ranging from bone density issues and incontinence to increased risk of stroke, heart attack, and, rarely, death.
Further, as you clarified, there is an abundance of existing evidence out there to trace whether use of puberty blockers has any overwhelming benefit to mental health that could possibly justify the known and unknown negative effects on physical health from the medical interventions proposed (puberty blockers - which are followed by synthetic cross-sex hormones and so-called "top" surgery [double mastectomies] and "bottom" surgery [castration and penile inversion/vaginoplasty or hysterectomy and/or fake penis creation from forearm or thigh flesh/phalloplasty]). We have to include these other medical interventions because it is known that once a child is put on puberty blockers, there is about a 96% chance of going on to those other medical interventions. So, as you note, we should look at what has happened to all of the children put on blockers over the last 20 years or so, and go from there.
Lastly, if we are to do anything for children today who have not yet received any treatment and are of an age to receive blockers (around 11 or 12), and are diagnosed with gender dysphoria, it should be non-invasive talk therapy or behavioral therapy using the full range of techniques available, without the ridiculous constraint of having to "affirm" and never question a child's discomfort with their own body. I will add that we need to STOP teaching children, teens, and young adults that discomfort with their sex means they are actually the opposite sex and must be treated and referred to as the opposite sex and given medical treatments to appear as the opposite sex from puberty on in order to have any semblance of happiness. This is a ridiculous falsehood that is causing many children, teens and young adults to reject their own bodies and suffer medical harm.
The concept of gender identity affirmation is highly convenient for adults who wish to carry out drastic social, medical and surgical interventions on children and young people, whatever their motivations; financial, political or psychopathic. I maintain that no group in society is treated as badly as the mentally ill, between wars that is.
A healthy puberty is necessary for natural brain development and maturation, bone health, and sexual and reproductive health.
I fully agree, which is why I can't support a new cohort of children being experimented on by the NHS. I would argue that the right to good health and development, including the completion of puberty, is more important than any right to have your childhood feelings about gender respected by adults.
Piglets? Monkeys? I know we are on shaky ground for animal rights, but I just can't imagine that human children would be the starting point for live experiments
I can hear the vegans screaming.
Have there been adequate animal studies on puberty blockers and cross sex hormones? If not, shouldn't that be required before human studies are allowed?
I didn't know of any animal studies on gender transition, assuming there would be difficulty in diagnosing dysphoria in a lab rat. However it turns out that people really have been doing transgender experiments on rats and mice. Here are three I found:
https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpendo.00161.2017
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/235730284_Cross-sex_hormonal_replacement_Is_this_really_effective_an_experimental_clue
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5774248/
Thanks for the studies. I was thinking animal studies could be useful from a safety perspective, e.g., bone density
I suppose so, but puberty is so much earlier in rodent life cycles that I'm not sure the results would be meaningful for humans. According to this article, the relationship between mouse and human development is not linear.
https://www.jax.org/news-and-insights/jax-blog/2017/november/when-are-mice-considered-old#