I want to note that ROGD is not shown to only be girls.
You have ROGD defined as " that increasing rates of trans identification among teenage girls may be partly attributable to social contagion."
From what I see, Littman had 83% girls and 17% boys, and the rise in boys has been huge, as well, just not as huge as that of the girls.
In the GIDS plot, for instance, you can look at the number of boys in 2009 and in 2016, which went from 34 to 557, a huge jump in a few years. It's just that the girls rose higher and started lower. At this point the numbers are 1:2 or 1:3 or 1:4 boys to girls in the US, I believe, both girls and boys are very high. I am guessing the ratio depends on age, too. The ratio depends upon country, I think Finland has many more girls than boys. There are plots in the Cass Review systematic review on demographics: https://adc.bmj.com/content/109/Suppl_2/s3.long#F3
Some argue that there aren't ROGD boys, in particular, those who think that boys are either AGP or gay, but this is not established. Males who have desisted or detransitioned also note social media influence, comorbidities, being ASD, as influencing their belief that transition was what they needed. The ROGD hypotheses "briefly stated, are that psychosocial factors (such as trauma, mental health conditions, maladaptive coping mechanisms, internalized homophobia, and social influence) can cause or contribute to the development of gender dysphoria in some individuals (Littman, 2018)." from https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-021-02163-w This isn't restricted to girls, I don't think.
You can also check out the site rogdboys.org for a lot of detailed information.
Practically this is also important as there are some experts who claim that AGP treated by medical transition is beneficial (pointing to poor older studies, neglecting to note that follow up research for those is so bad it can't be trusted). The best studies show the worst outcomes for surgery ("The results were inconsistent, but negative in the best studies"), https://www.cms.gov/medicare-coverage-database/view/ncacal-decision-memo.aspx?proposed=Y&NCAId=282 .
Also, if you have two women in a relationship and one identifies as male, is that a gay relationship or a heterosexual relationship according to some? I thought both had to identify as male to be considered "gay" but I really don't understand this...
Dear Genspect Team, Great start. It's an important project, and great article. In response to your request for feedback:
1) Please don't define gay without including women. The only reason the "L" was added to the Gay Rights Movement was because lesbians were feeling too invisible given the male domination of the movement, and because people associate the word gay with men. We lesbians did not dissociate ourselves from the term. Ask almost any lesbian if she is gay (not if she loves the word or identifies with it, but just if she is), and she'll say yes, of course. It's an umbrella term.
2) I think you're underplaying the non-binary, queer, genderfluid, etc phenomenon, both in the article and in the non-binary definition. In a 2023 Washington Post survey, a whopping "62 percent majority of trans adults identify as 'trans, gender non-conforming' or 'trans, nonbinary."
The frequent references to "males who identify as women" or whatever give the impression that you're still thinking the way transsexuals of yore used to think. It's a whole other world out there now, as you know, with many self-definitions that muddy or reject or shift within and beyond concepts of male and female altogether. I'm not advocating for it, just describing it. My sense is that they mean androgynous, but they use language like "neither male nor female, or both, or transmac, or demiboy, or depends on the day...." Given the upsurge in mastectomies, especially, and the frequent use of the non-binary term, I think the question, What does non-binary actually mean? deserves more than a simple answer.
I am male. I walk daily, alone, like most other men. Women however are the complete opposite, walking together and have the capability to talk, constantly. I am not being judgmental, but it is how the two sexes evolve. Women are far more willing to talk of their own and their friend’s social challenges. Men generally keep their feelings to themselves.
Physical appearances can be masqueraded, but can mental ones too?
Would two men who prefer to describe themselves as women, still be more interested in watching sports on TV whilst their female equivalents in Call the Midwife?
The thought of women ‘s washrooms displaying a “ lift the seat” sign or sanitary pads being available in the men’s , must be so discomforting especially for women.
Anyone stupid enough to refer to my wife as cisgender will live to regret it. Vocabulary and physical actions would result in a manner inappropriate for either sex. Vocabulary does matter.
Individuals can call themselves, dress as they wish. Do not however expect others to share your pretence .
Keep up the fight , you have far more support than you imagine.
As someone (F27) who was identifying as queer myself until recently, I have never heard it used as a verb. I took it on as a label that came the closest to a non-label. I didn’t like the assumptions that came with bisexuality, like implying that I like masculine men. My sexuality has fluctuated and at times felt nonexistent. I now identify as bisexual to distance myself from all of the craziness and stop labeling based on others’ assumptions.
Anyway, the definition of queer, particularly as a verb and including those trying to argue for children being able to consent seems a bit too outlying to be relevant. I feel like it could lead to dismissal for being too similar to the gay/pedophilia conflation. It feels quite fringe. That’s my two cents; maybe with more info I could agree.
I think one of the clearest gaps in all this is failing to use the terms masculine and feminine appropriately, rather than saying someone is literally a man or a woman when they're not. I think this would solve a lot of problems.
In line with Genspect’s invitation to clarify language, the following definitions aim to refine the concepts and make explicit the assumptions that underlie them.
GENDER
Gender refers to the set of psychological traits, behavioral dispositions, and cultural expressions that are organized around biological sex. It includes both behavioral tendencies that may have evolutionary bases and variable cultural manifestations.
Some cultural expressions are contingent or arbitrary (for example, associating certain colors with boys or girls), while others may reflect preferences related to the historical sexual division of labor (for example, certain occupational choices).
From a psychological perspective, gender would have a cerebral correlate: patterns of neurobiological organization in which impulses and behaviors differentially associated with each sex are structured. A paradigmatic example of psychology organized around sex is sexual orientation, although other behavioral preferences may also have sex-differentiated bases.
Typical and atypical brain configurations
The distribution of these configurations could be schematically represented as bimodal, with two poles (male and female) and a less frequent intermediate zone.
Various mechanisms—such as genetic variations or prenatal hormonal influences—could give rise to atypical configurations. In such cases, unusual combinations of impulses and behaviors may be present, partial absence of tendencies typical of one’s own sex, or the presence of traits more characteristic of the opposite sex.
GENDER IDENTITY (GI)
Gender identity refers to the subjective sense that some individuals express of belonging to, being, or feeling more comfortable in relation to a particular sex or gender. This identification typically becomes explicit when there is an experience of incongruence with one’s own sex.
Its etiology may be multifactorial, including biological, psychological, and environmental factors. In some cases, the influence of early experiences, neurodevelopmental conditions, or traumatic events has been suggested. There are also documented cases of forced upbringing in the role of the opposite sex (such as the case of David Reimer), which illustrate the complexity of the phenomenon.
Not all individuals report having a defined gender identity. It may be argued that the concept primarily describes those who experience incongruence or distress.
Gender identity does not have objective biological markers and is, by definition, a subjective phenomenon. Its subjective nature does not render it irrelevant—just as is the case with conditions such as depression or anxiety—but it does imply that it is not directly verifiable.
GENDER DYSPHORIA (GD)
Gender dysphoria refers to the distress or anguish that may arise when a person perceives an incongruence between their sex and their gender identity.
In childhood, some studies indicate that many cases remit after puberty, particularly when they are not socially consolidated as a fixed identity. In such cases, a significant proportion of young people later identify as non-heterosexual and desist from identifying with the opposite sex or gender.
In adolescence, onset may be more strongly influenced by environmental and social factors. Desistance and/or regret following medical interventions may take several years to manifest.
GENDER NONCONFORMITY
Gender nonconformity describes behaviors, interests, or styles considered atypical for a person’s sex, without necessarily implying an incongruent gender identity or dysphoria.
TRANSSEXUALITY
Transsexuality is defined as the persistent desire to live and be recognized as a member of the opposite sex, generally accompanied by discomfort with one’s anatomical sex and the desire for hormonal or surgical interventions to approximate the desired sex as closely as possible.
Trauma, confusion, and suffering
Individuals with typical sexual configurations may also experience intense distress due to adverse life circumstances, such as sexual abuse or severe trauma. In some cases, the idea may arise that changing gender or sex would alleviate that suffering.
Clinical approaches should prioritize a comprehensive understanding of the origin of the distress, the treatment of trauma when present, and respectful support tailored to each particular situation.
At the social level, it is essential to promote respect toward individuals with diverse expressions or experiences and to reduce traumatic or discriminatory environments.
Hi,
Thank you for this!
I want to note that ROGD is not shown to only be girls.
You have ROGD defined as " that increasing rates of trans identification among teenage girls may be partly attributable to social contagion."
From what I see, Littman had 83% girls and 17% boys, and the rise in boys has been huge, as well, just not as huge as that of the girls.
In the GIDS plot, for instance, you can look at the number of boys in 2009 and in 2016, which went from 34 to 557, a huge jump in a few years. It's just that the girls rose higher and started lower. At this point the numbers are 1:2 or 1:3 or 1:4 boys to girls in the US, I believe, both girls and boys are very high. I am guessing the ratio depends on age, too. The ratio depends upon country, I think Finland has many more girls than boys. There are plots in the Cass Review systematic review on demographics: https://adc.bmj.com/content/109/Suppl_2/s3.long#F3
Some argue that there aren't ROGD boys, in particular, those who think that boys are either AGP or gay, but this is not established. Males who have desisted or detransitioned also note social media influence, comorbidities, being ASD, as influencing their belief that transition was what they needed. The ROGD hypotheses "briefly stated, are that psychosocial factors (such as trauma, mental health conditions, maladaptive coping mechanisms, internalized homophobia, and social influence) can cause or contribute to the development of gender dysphoria in some individuals (Littman, 2018)." from https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-021-02163-w This isn't restricted to girls, I don't think.
You can also check out the site rogdboys.org for a lot of detailed information.
Practically this is also important as there are some experts who claim that AGP treated by medical transition is beneficial (pointing to poor older studies, neglecting to note that follow up research for those is so bad it can't be trusted). The best studies show the worst outcomes for surgery ("The results were inconsistent, but negative in the best studies"), https://www.cms.gov/medicare-coverage-database/view/ncacal-decision-memo.aspx?proposed=Y&NCAId=282 .
Also, if you have two women in a relationship and one identifies as male, is that a gay relationship or a heterosexual relationship according to some? I thought both had to identify as male to be considered "gay" but I really don't understand this...
Thank you again!
Dear Genspect Team, Great start. It's an important project, and great article. In response to your request for feedback:
1) Please don't define gay without including women. The only reason the "L" was added to the Gay Rights Movement was because lesbians were feeling too invisible given the male domination of the movement, and because people associate the word gay with men. We lesbians did not dissociate ourselves from the term. Ask almost any lesbian if she is gay (not if she loves the word or identifies with it, but just if she is), and she'll say yes, of course. It's an umbrella term.
2) I think you're underplaying the non-binary, queer, genderfluid, etc phenomenon, both in the article and in the non-binary definition. In a 2023 Washington Post survey, a whopping "62 percent majority of trans adults identify as 'trans, gender non-conforming' or 'trans, nonbinary."
The frequent references to "males who identify as women" or whatever give the impression that you're still thinking the way transsexuals of yore used to think. It's a whole other world out there now, as you know, with many self-definitions that muddy or reject or shift within and beyond concepts of male and female altogether. I'm not advocating for it, just describing it. My sense is that they mean androgynous, but they use language like "neither male nor female, or both, or transmac, or demiboy, or depends on the day...." Given the upsurge in mastectomies, especially, and the frequent use of the non-binary term, I think the question, What does non-binary actually mean? deserves more than a simple answer.
I am male. I walk daily, alone, like most other men. Women however are the complete opposite, walking together and have the capability to talk, constantly. I am not being judgmental, but it is how the two sexes evolve. Women are far more willing to talk of their own and their friend’s social challenges. Men generally keep their feelings to themselves.
Physical appearances can be masqueraded, but can mental ones too?
Would two men who prefer to describe themselves as women, still be more interested in watching sports on TV whilst their female equivalents in Call the Midwife?
The thought of women ‘s washrooms displaying a “ lift the seat” sign or sanitary pads being available in the men’s , must be so discomforting especially for women.
Anyone stupid enough to refer to my wife as cisgender will live to regret it. Vocabulary and physical actions would result in a manner inappropriate for either sex. Vocabulary does matter.
Individuals can call themselves, dress as they wish. Do not however expect others to share your pretence .
Keep up the fight , you have far more support than you imagine.
Hi Genspect team,
Just got a subscription so I could comment.
As someone (F27) who was identifying as queer myself until recently, I have never heard it used as a verb. I took it on as a label that came the closest to a non-label. I didn’t like the assumptions that came with bisexuality, like implying that I like masculine men. My sexuality has fluctuated and at times felt nonexistent. I now identify as bisexual to distance myself from all of the craziness and stop labeling based on others’ assumptions.
Anyway, the definition of queer, particularly as a verb and including those trying to argue for children being able to consent seems a bit too outlying to be relevant. I feel like it could lead to dismissal for being too similar to the gay/pedophilia conflation. It feels quite fringe. That’s my two cents; maybe with more info I could agree.
Thanks for all you do 💖
Growing up Gen Z and never living with it as a slur, it has just meant “not straight” or “other” to me and a lot of my peers
I think one of the clearest gaps in all this is failing to use the terms masculine and feminine appropriately, rather than saying someone is literally a man or a woman when they're not. I think this would solve a lot of problems.
In line with Genspect’s invitation to clarify language, the following definitions aim to refine the concepts and make explicit the assumptions that underlie them.
GENDER
Gender refers to the set of psychological traits, behavioral dispositions, and cultural expressions that are organized around biological sex. It includes both behavioral tendencies that may have evolutionary bases and variable cultural manifestations.
Some cultural expressions are contingent or arbitrary (for example, associating certain colors with boys or girls), while others may reflect preferences related to the historical sexual division of labor (for example, certain occupational choices).
From a psychological perspective, gender would have a cerebral correlate: patterns of neurobiological organization in which impulses and behaviors differentially associated with each sex are structured. A paradigmatic example of psychology organized around sex is sexual orientation, although other behavioral preferences may also have sex-differentiated bases.
Typical and atypical brain configurations
The distribution of these configurations could be schematically represented as bimodal, with two poles (male and female) and a less frequent intermediate zone.
Various mechanisms—such as genetic variations or prenatal hormonal influences—could give rise to atypical configurations. In such cases, unusual combinations of impulses and behaviors may be present, partial absence of tendencies typical of one’s own sex, or the presence of traits more characteristic of the opposite sex.
GENDER IDENTITY (GI)
Gender identity refers to the subjective sense that some individuals express of belonging to, being, or feeling more comfortable in relation to a particular sex or gender. This identification typically becomes explicit when there is an experience of incongruence with one’s own sex.
Its etiology may be multifactorial, including biological, psychological, and environmental factors. In some cases, the influence of early experiences, neurodevelopmental conditions, or traumatic events has been suggested. There are also documented cases of forced upbringing in the role of the opposite sex (such as the case of David Reimer), which illustrate the complexity of the phenomenon.
Not all individuals report having a defined gender identity. It may be argued that the concept primarily describes those who experience incongruence or distress.
Gender identity does not have objective biological markers and is, by definition, a subjective phenomenon. Its subjective nature does not render it irrelevant—just as is the case with conditions such as depression or anxiety—but it does imply that it is not directly verifiable.
GENDER DYSPHORIA (GD)
Gender dysphoria refers to the distress or anguish that may arise when a person perceives an incongruence between their sex and their gender identity.
In childhood, some studies indicate that many cases remit after puberty, particularly when they are not socially consolidated as a fixed identity. In such cases, a significant proportion of young people later identify as non-heterosexual and desist from identifying with the opposite sex or gender.
In adolescence, onset may be more strongly influenced by environmental and social factors. Desistance and/or regret following medical interventions may take several years to manifest.
GENDER NONCONFORMITY
Gender nonconformity describes behaviors, interests, or styles considered atypical for a person’s sex, without necessarily implying an incongruent gender identity or dysphoria.
TRANSSEXUALITY
Transsexuality is defined as the persistent desire to live and be recognized as a member of the opposite sex, generally accompanied by discomfort with one’s anatomical sex and the desire for hormonal or surgical interventions to approximate the desired sex as closely as possible.
Trauma, confusion, and suffering
Individuals with typical sexual configurations may also experience intense distress due to adverse life circumstances, such as sexual abuse or severe trauma. In some cases, the idea may arise that changing gender or sex would alleviate that suffering.
Clinical approaches should prioritize a comprehensive understanding of the origin of the distress, the treatment of trauma when present, and respectful support tailored to each particular situation.
At the social level, it is essential to promote respect toward individuals with diverse expressions or experiences and to reduce traumatic or discriminatory environments.